New Tallinners' episode 2

hello everyone and welcome to new talenters i'm the co-host eric and with me my co-host is the laughing uhthat's all good that's all good anyways so we are on our second episode so weactually made it past one and now we're at two let's see how far this goes and we have special guests coming butwe're going to talk about that later first i want to talk about what the heck is happening in tallinn in april nono no you don't know what's happening you talked about the whole exhibit that's still going i haveno idea what is happening but what i do know and there is something i knowis that this episode and the person who's going to come here is going toanswer a lot of questions i have personally and with my experience sowhat i'm talking about right is the question right now is crypto and all the buzz around itand i last year many people don't know thiswho know me i lived off of crypto money the whole year i wasn't working or anything ididn't tell this to anyone but i was connected with many people who are very extrememindsets on this topic and who are not and there's just so many questions ihave with this with this exactly whatever it isi i don't want to say anything because i'm too incompetent for this for now for now yeahand uh all these interesting things happening that already happened uh on 25th of january there was uh thisdiscussion in the government with the regulations right and like what is going on on there so i don't know what is going on but iwant to know what's happened and what is going to go on from now with thisuh crypto has gone through such a wild ride i mean you know like initially it was this whole libertarian thing right wherewe can have a money that is not controlled or manipulated by a government yeah we can have something that's a gold alternative we can as aspecies now go from you know being centralized to kind of just everyone you know can actually represent themselvesyeah i mean the first thing sovereignty the first thing like these people but not these people so i have a very closefriend they are doing a very great thing with a pot in estonia and it's really working and i mean i'm the perfectexample but it's it's uh the extreme way of selling it orthe idea behind it i feel like the people who are selling it don't even know what they're talking aboutthat's what i felt uh it's these promises like this a freedom from you know the banks and thegovernment and to people to have money and do whatever they want in life and what they really desire and it's allgreat talk but then you also have people who are like you know you have money laundering you have uh terrorismfinancing you have all this other stuff that you know like well we can't police this and we can't control this and it'slike well i mean i understand of course we don't want terrorism happening and we don't want you know like people messingwith stuff in ways that are you know going to cause problems for people in general but you know it's it's aninteresting philosophical conversation that i think overall globally we haven't figured out how to have exactly but howestonia got independent we didn't have it all figured out we just did what we believed in the moment wasright and tried to understand it right so yeah but i mean you know it's one thing to also do that but there's also ahuge responsibility whether you're um i mean yourself you have personal responsibility for yourself and yourfamily you know on a community level and a company level on a on a government leveland you know like i sympathize and empathize with the libertarian argumenti'm huge on that but at the same time it's like you know keep in mind the whole burn the world down to fix it isnot a solution you know like you know i used to be those i appreciate the the sentimentlike trust me i feel that um for many reasons we'll get into thatanother time but you know the point is crypto was sold or initially showed thepotentiality of offering something that could create an infrastructure of genuine freedomand you know genuine sovereignty for an individual with privacy anonymity if sonecessary and warranted etc but at the same time it's also as a result of being so freeit's gone through a history of replicating the same problems that the financial system has already gonethrough we used to have you know back in the day i don't know if you know this i mean just before i was born too umbut as an ex recovering finance person um you know the whole scams with stocksin the stock market in the early days and people pumping and dumping things that didn't exist et cetera you knowinsider trading before that became more regulated all this other stuff and the same issuesthat we've solved in an existing system are just being replicated in the crypto system as well and these are legitimateconcerns you know we should care about the fact that people are getting scammed and people are doing various things but thatbeing said it doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water you know it's like there's somethinghere it's something of value let's have a sober conversation not a hypedconversation about what is that value proposition yeah what can it actually solve what can it actually give usand how can we move forward together as a species you know in a way that actually is useful wow man and thatthat is what i want to talk to our next guest about and i'm super curious and super excitedbecause this is one guy who i don't know if you know how i met him i'm not sure backstory backstorytime so my co-founder at my current startup he and i met because i wanted to angelinvest in companies i know how you're getting it exactly and i was like late at night um at a co-working space and iwas like you know the founders who are working right now at this time they're serious about their businessthey they are you know they're not the nine-to-five founders they're the diehard founders and there were only twofounders there one was my co-founder the other was this guy oh you never mentioned the other guyi finally heard about the one guy so this guy and honestly likeboth of them amazing people i honestly feel like i'm the dumbest guy in the room and those guys are aroundand uh yes and uh you know and and it's beenabsolutely an honor to know this guy and you know like i'm rooting for him all the way and solet's let's get into it and now we have a very special guest this guy is someone i'veknown i don't know probably five years maybe even more um he is someone who hasinspired a lot of founders in this ecosystem in brazil he's a founder hacker teacherum yoga instructor skydiver like i mean this guy does it all right but beyond that he's one ofthe most humble people i know as well i am very excited to welcome to the stage with us adelsoncome on man let's uh welcome let's get this party started how you doinghello thank you very much for having me today and have uh i'm very grateful for the invitation so thank you thank you tohave you here man yeah dude your story is full of so many twists and turns yeah and i i don't know if we'regoing to have enough time to go through everything but i do want to as to say start at the beginning umhow did you get started as an entrepreneur like what's the kind of origin story of the superherowell it's a long time ago it happened a long time ago for the first timeuh i always loved magic i i worked as a magicianback in brazil for some time whati was doing magic for my neighbors friends and collecting some money to buy somecandies so it was like i was doing presentations in my my house for them withthose magic kits you can buy for for kids yeah then uh my father always likehe motivated me a lot he liked magic then after some time i became a realmagic doing magic for in not in shows but in pubs uh night clubsand even events for like college uh in the college some yeah some placesand uh yeah i i started my entrepreneurship doing magic forand you still keep doing magic but that kind of matters it's just next level you know it's magic for a lot ofpeople but so so going from a magician to then a hacker how did that happenyeah uh i started working on internet since the very beginning in brazil in95. and uh i always liked it but so like when you were five years old no no i wasolder like i don't knowjust we need to cut it that's fine high school high school i was in high schooland internet came in brazil and then i m my father gave us to me andmy brothers my our first computer and man i love that computer and i startedto stud how to develop something over there by myself first girlfriend and first computer right it was likethings your a new first car maybe yeah probably i all almost exchanged my firstgirlfriend for a computer so i i always was like because i was justin disbelief like nerdy guy i mean i'm too young to relate toyour first computer wow guys when i was younger than that my my family they went like to shoppingmalls and we had that places selling computers right then they left me at thetime they left me in that section then went to the to the shopping mall to buythe things they were yeah and i was like watching people and learning how to codesomething just like to print my name and copy and paste my name many times in the screen and uh i was pretty that's why everyoneknows you in brazil yeah i'm very nerdy guysa lot of things so i started in computing doing that kind of thing because i wasalways interested in computing processing and developing thingsbut in entrepreneurship when i was in the high school i did my firstprogram my first app at that time like fora kind of ranting movies like hhs rankingmoves so you did netflix before netflix and netflix blockbuster yeahbefore blockbuster yeah becoming the huge one right we had these small places rentingmovies and then i i did my first app for manage the movies in that placethen the second app i was in the high school yet it was for managing the some bus garages okay the living and andcoming buses yeah the parking place of busesyeah and then i i sold the first my first step for them for managing the buses andi i was in the high school that was my starting doing doing programs doingapps and selling them nice so basically you wereout of high school successful founder with multiple you know apps that you've created and soyeah i mean that's the story yeah i never worked as an employed insomething yeah i was always building my own things projects that's my projects yeah that's i i always say ihad many businesses in my life and the the only in the only place iwork that's employed in that place was like a teacher in the college mm-hmmthe only place i was teaching um in the computer sciences over thereat the graduation in computer sciences um network administration security cybersecurity at the time and operational systems got it so you mentioned something about hackinglast time we spoke how did you how did you become a hacker like i'm really curious i want to knowwhat you did i mean if you can if you can publicly say it what happened was like i started in thevery beginning of internet in brazil and the internet arrived over there through bbs the bulletin board systemsokay and many of the bulletin board systems over there they were paidand very expensive to pay then the first thing was like we just startedtrying to find ways to use the internet and the bbs'sover there without pain that that was the first beginning of hacking something in my lifeand after the high school when i went to the college i met some guy in the cybersecurity space and i had my own bbs at the time i was running in my housemy parents parents house home some bbs over therethen when i went to the college i i i was doing computer sciences and i metsome guy in the cyber security space he was a in my mind a real hacker okaybecause he came from the underworld like the the those communities ofhackers then because what you were doing with thosecommunities i was very impressed like what man that's cool i want to be partof the of this kind of thing then uh wewe were like huge friends at that time over there then he introduced me to theto the communities to those kind of communities the hacking communities in brazil at that timeand i met some awesome guys doing all kinds of things at that timesince hacking the telephone the public telephone just to makecalls without paying because we use that tokens that's our tokens to to make a call yeah and thosekinds of things and people were doing a lot of things and then i met linuxand a lot of people using linux at the time to not use windows anymoreand i learned a lot of those people i learned a lot then we founded in brazil in 96one of the first cyber security companies in brazil me and and and that friendand we started to sell services okay on on cyber securityand like some big huge television they tried to to be an internet provider and weinstalled the entire infrastructure with moderns and the operational systemsand linuxes to manage everything for being an internet provider you literally madelike made part of brazil's internet yeah totally totally that's true because i started in the very very beginningand i i made a lot of friends in that that field and i then i started working withcyber security and never stop it anymore and so how did you end up in estoniawhat's that story it was a crazy part of my life crazy part of my lifeso explain that i need to start in 2011 because of bitcoinand in 2011 i met bitcoin because it was the first thing in the internet that couldnot be duplicated and in my mind at the time how howsomething can be on internet and people can't copy that thing doesn't make sensefrom the view of a cyber security guy it was impossible then i started to studuh how bitcoin worked through mining at that time i had another company we were doing softwaresfor nightclubs restaurants pubs andi i understood everything about bitcoin and i was totally amazed with thetechnology and in coming back to the beginning of 2000sthat time i worked on a genoma project in ona lab doing research on cancer and using genoma and then we did one ofthe first cases in brazil using distributed computing soworking with distributed computing like you have many computers working to find some uh answer to some problemtogether then they they connect all the pieces of the puzzle anddeliver the answer to you and bitcoin has that kind of thing exactly andi i was thinking oh my god there's something on internet it's a kind of money that there's no value right rightnow because the prices of bitcoin like it was centers of dollars yeah at that time it wasnothing at the time it does nothing it wasn't 11 12 13 14 i meanless than one dollar the price of the bitcoin at the time and because of the mining thingthe electricity in the the company it became some hike and my partners whatthe hell you are doing in this office stop doing what they're doingbecause i i had my own lab in that company i was doing drivers forfor systems and touch screens and connecting a kind of printers specialprinters for techs for the tech service in brazil right they were crazy at the time you need toregister some very special printer with the government just tolike to print the recycles of not recycle the recipes thethe receipts the receipts yeah yeah things and you need to register that that kindof thing a printer but there was over no drivers for linux at the timeeven for touch screens even for the printers and for everything because i'mtalking about like 2004-2005 andin that company i developed the first biometric service for linux in the southamerica for night club so you could pay and buy things on a night club you're using your finger back back that timethen because of the lab and i was doing i just want to say for a second dude you've likeyeah you've done so many things man i did i did a lot that is amazing yeah but then but then so so then you weretalking about how you like how the bitcoin story because of bitcoin not because ofbitcoin but because of that company i had many computers right in my office and that that's why i started by miningi had a lot of gpus a lot of motherboards and a lot of things then i i built some mining factory in my officewhat became very expensive in electricity it was totally crazy thenafter my partner did the bitcoin costs at the time cover the electricity like did you no never no never never not evenclose impossible yeah and then my partners came to me and stopped whatyou're doing we know you're doing something because the crazy guy herestops it's not the thing then i stopped at the uh mining bitcoin because i understoodbut i i did not like seea value on bitcoin and in the future because it was like another thing on internet and we were managing already alot of revenue of big corporations like big huge nightclubs ornet to work off night clubs right and okay i understand how it works itprobably will be something so you were experimenting basicallyand the cryptography side of bitcoin was very interestingand okay i stopped with bitcoin then i i had my exit in that company ifound another company doing something for the elderly people i made some gadgets for detectingelderly falls in brazil in 2013 in 2013and then i started that thing wait wait wait you said it like it was nothing i can't ineed to stop so you made a device that uhthat sent out signals to hospitals when something is going on with the elderlyuh sorry yeah so you made those they were chips you said yeahfor elderly people to use so it would send out signals to the hospitals yeah right those are forfor the family not for hospitals but for the family because sometimes they just fall in their their homes and the familycould be monitoring and couldn't be monitored and that is amazing yeahand you were doing essentially what we today call silver tech you know like um but at the time nobodywas thinking silver tech as even a market segment now i see tons of startups in silvertech but that that is actually like an earlyand very relevant applications i started the thing in 2012 because my grandmothershe was totally independent living alone and independent and she doesn't likelike it like any kind of help for anything and she was like 86 87 years oldand going like on on some chairs to get somethingin the high places and he felt many times he felt manytimes he had surgeries many surgeries but even with that she was living whereher consistency is coming from yeah then she died at in that year 2012and i was thinking oh my god what could i do for helping those kind of things becauseit seems to be a problem then i started to research about the falling for elderly people false andeven my parents because they were like all the time worried about mygrandmother they were not living like as a couple they had nolife as a couple anymore my father and my mother never because they were always worried about mygrandmother then thinking about could i help yeah maybe then i i started to researchthat thing then i i built the the sensor the gadget so you built the hardwareyes the hardware and the application for that and it it was like featured in ahuge channel in a television channel in brazil as well but brazil has no like uhhistory of investing in hardware so it was hard to find investor for that kind ofgadget in brazil they were like it's still hard today for hardware startups yeah it's not really changed and it'sbeen like almost 20 years even year yeah totally then i was thinking about in brazil thepeople are becoming old and less young people more old people the pyramidof age yes and i was thinking okay i like thismarket i think this market is the future but i don't know how tostay here then i started to research how touh distribute some products to help the the life of those people then i built amarketplace it was the biggest marketplace in brazil in 2014 and 2015selling products like wheelchairs bath chairs and stickers and everything forthe the health of elderly people and uh when i was doing that thingbitcoin in total well i started that thing in 2013 the first year so i i built the gadgettried to find some investors no investors at all then i was thinking i want to stay in these markets i willbuild something to have my own money and finances the thing in the future maybe yeah theni built the marketplace i found the distributor distributors for everything found someone some people in china somesome people in brazil built the the distribution channels over there in 2013then bitcoin went from uh to a hundred dollars to a thousandtwo hundred dollars i remember this something like that in the beginning of the year that's when i first sold andyeah and a friend of mine he he asked me man do you know something about bitcoin yesbut when i was looking into bitcoin cents not a hundred because i stoppedlooking into bitcoin then i was not interested in using bitcoin or doingsome because people asked me to build some exchanges bitcoin exchange right at that time rightand my previous company i was managing revenue of many many companiesthe night clubs and it was a lot of money and i know the problems the liability of managingpeople money yeah i didn't like want to work with that yeah the financialregulations the bureaucracy the red tape yeah anybody get time for insurance andand a lot of things then okay i waslike monitoring and following the market the bitcoin market at that timebut not did that anything in in bitcoin fieldthen in the end of 2014 i saw a case of the university ofnicosia in chipra they authenticated the graduation certificates on bitcoin blockchaininteresting very manually right very manually but they did itso there's an immutable record and verifiable record of the records of graduationover there when i saw the case of oh my god it seems it's involving cyber securityit's involving bitcoin because the infrastructure of bitcoin that amazingthing i like it since the beginning that's the thing i want to do becausei don't know if people over here know about that in brazil we have a lot of bureaucracy and because of bureaucracy a lot ofcorruption one example i always talk about is if you sign a document inbrazil you need to go to a notary to stamp the signature if you have five signatures you need togo to it notary where each signature is registered to get a stamp on top of thesignature every estonian right now i'm not signing anything there yeah estonians don't know about that theyeven don't realize that kind of thing can happen and because of that kind of thing in brazilthe notaries they are a huge institution strong institutionbut lobbying power with a lot of power and lobbying power thenthinking about authenticating documents or something i was thinkingi want to do something with bitcoin but not just for authenticatingbut for solving a problem that is i i worked as a musician for some timeover there and then um authenticating compositionsaltering music authenticating music makes a lot of sense because in the law the brazilianlaw the rights of the composition the the popular the copyrights yeah they arethey born with the the art right like if you producesomething you have the right you have the right you have the art you don't need to register anything in any placebut if there's some questions or people goes to the justice tosay oh it was mine you cop it or something it's very it's good to have a precedence to havesomething proof yeah you did it before and authenticating things on bitcoinmakes a lot of sense then i built the first the first version of my original mywas a platform for authenticating art for creators all kinds of creatorswriters musicians and everythingjust after publishing or then i became an entrepreneuron crypto field because of bitcoin and i was running the both companies at the same time the marketplaceand the reason why authenticating things okay because originally did you sleep at all noyou were juggling like a marketplace to kind of get your hardware product out and you had this crypto thing toauthenticate yeah i always did a lot of things you love solving problems man yeah i love solving problems that's thething i i like to do then one month after launching the thing andit was like a side project oh i just one month after launching the thing it wasvery like see what happens yeah some veryfamous guy in brazil he's a lawyer and he writes in the biggest journals and magazines he has atv show and everything he wrote uh an article for a bigblog for a big uh website saying the end of notarieswhen he was like aware about what i was doing watch out somebody's comingoh that then it was crazy my life went crazy because of that right because ilaunched it like it was a soft launch it was not a launching i just announced it in this put it upthen one month after the end of notaries then they started calling me calling himto explain what i was doing and they became aggressive rightand the things were very strange at the time and they like invited me invited to dosome workshops to them and they the legal area of the notoriousthe the associate notaries association over there they started to follow mefollow me in the events i was speaking just to suggest what i could sayor not over strongly suggest you mean yeah uncontrollable press like they madeyou an offer you couldn't refuse like the god yes okay like but not to joke about it that'spretty serious because you were a threat to their business yeah totally yeah i i received some threats right from fromthem and one time some some notary from the middle of brazil very far place over there there'splaces in brazil where there's no rules those kind of places okay he invited meto visit the place and because he want to implement my technology in the notary for the first timethen i was talking to that lawyer the journalist lawyer the guyand he i swear he will he called the governor of the stateto mobilize people around because if like i disappear during that that kind because the placei was visiting it could be some kind of dangerous and then over there he showed memessages like talking to people about the technology about the thing i was doing oh we know him oh he's not aproblem we solve him we know where he lives we know where he works we solve it's not a problem to usokay and it was scary at the time it that that kind of thing was totally scaryso after the article like did it happen like that or like how it took a bit of time no it was fastit was fast but at the same time i became more known in brazil because thethe federal government asked me to do some speeches in their eventthe the government in brazil asked me invited me to do many [Music]lectures or speaking or presentations the notaries started to ask forpresentations and the regulators in brazil asking for presentations the bankers inbrazil started asking for presentations so that kind of thing like being a known person very known person in brazil inthe blockchain because i introduced that thing in brazil probably it waslike safer for my life at that time because some people they were nothappy about what i was doing obviously yeah yeah and that's that'sone of the challenges right when you're doing something innovative like truly innovative and you're genuinely trying to helppeople which is exactly where you're coming from and i know i've had the pleasure of knowing you for a few years now and like you are honestly forsomebody as innovative and disruptive in a very positive way you're so humble about what you do nolike no but i i honestly and like but yeah people see it as a threat right because you're you're notbeing aggressive about it you're not saying hey i'm going to remove your business notaries or whatever you're just saying hey there's a better way todo this and let's do something better you know let's move on and upgrade ourselves and they'relike no we want to stay dinosaurs and uh we want to stick really close to you and start being your friends and that's theother thing right because they want presentations but they're really trying to say okay let's take some notes and then exactly yeah so so then whathappened yeah one example sometime it was like 7 30a.m i received a call from the the president the ceo of the notaries associationassociation in brazil asking me to remove some pieces on on on facebook okay marketingpieces on facebook under time he called me to remove theregister because in in brazil they he saiduh people you know my friends my colleagues over here they are askingthings and in on your website you have here register register like open anaccount register because who registers in brazil are justthe notaries and i changed theregister to sign up determined because the term in portuguese registered yeah registeredyeah they said just notaries register something over here you can't registereven so they have the exclusivity on it apparently yeah it was totally crazy and umyeah it was like a hard time then what happened and it was good to usin the end of 2016 uh we were approved on a google residency programon google and then i needed to choose because i was running the both companiesand looking into the elderly the elderly market will be always there yeah andwith the same issues because the culture of brazilians they don't handle the old people so well so theproblems would be the same but the crypt or the blockchain the thing it was up and comingthen we needed to choose and another thing that happened that helped itwe had the the presidential impeachment in brazil in 2015. i remember that thenthe economy yeah i was just crashing crashingyeah in the during the 2016 it was the worst year for that market for having an idea wewere sending the products and then people were calling back saying ohi'm sorry can i send it back because the person diedit didn't arrive on time what happened people were like running out of moneythey were buying the things for the health of the people in the last time as possible right just to buy something tohave their conscience like to look after their elderly but it was too late becausetoo late yeah then oh we didn't use it it is closed can i we send it back itwas like a dark time for having an elderly marketplace a lot of like people returning packagesand everything it was totally dark it was it was heavy for handling the thingthen we went to the google project the residency program and we chooselike the the elderly market will be here but the crypto market pro is likejumping on a ferrari at 120 kilometers per hour exactly weneed to be part of that or not yeah and be fast then we closed the other company andstayed just with original my and running a new thing like a real company hiring peopledoing marketing selling and everything as a real so original my then you were authenticatingcreator content creative content essentially and essentially providing aalternative to like a signature in a way right oh yeah it was the second step of the company right because when westarted to authenticate documents for for ip over there intellectual propertypeople started asking us oh but i want to sign a document on blockchain because we need to go to an author tosign something we don't want to go to we want something to sign the documentand the platforms for signing things at the time they were they were like click on a linkand it's magically sign it but there's there was no proof the thing wassign it like i mean i could send a link to myself and sign for you like how do you know exactly or leave your computeropen someone goes and and and when it went to the justice league yeah they were saying that kind of thing yeahi didn't sign i did somebody else somebody how do you know it's me yeahthen trying to understand how to solve that problem in brazil we have aa digital certificate like the smart cards you have here in estonia but just two percent of the people inbrazil has that thing because it's pretty expensive oh and they are focusing on companies they create a lawif you invoice something you need to register that invoice with your digital signature okaybut but for companies not for people so people don't use just two percent of people hasthen i was thinking how to create an alternative for a digital signaturewhere i can prove people are signing that documentthen i created a protocol for for identificationof people so identifying people issuing a digital certificate blockchain basedbecause today we know about the nfts it's easier to have something on your identity at that time they didn'tunderstand yeah and that's why a blockchain digital signatureand we were issuing uh for free for people wow and chargingcompanies who were requesting the signatures on documents so who registered the documents to be signed wecharge that person or that company not the signatories people who will sign make senseand then some other people from the digital certificates over there they becameangry because we were providing something for free to peoplefor signing the thing when i was finishing the protocolthat same lawyer who wrote the article yeah he he came to me and asked manthis protocol you are producing you are building it's amazing because we can sign publicpetitions and send it officially to the government wow in brazil it happened some a few timeslike since the brazil became a democratic countryit was 1988 just four times peoplecollected signatures on public petitions and delivered to the government and there's a law if one percent of thepeople sign the public petition the government must vote it's on our constitution okay wellthat's good and one of the things well they they were like to reduce the corruptionthen the the guy came to me man with this we can collect the signatures somuch oh yeah the last time they collected signature like one million signatureswould have taken so much expense two tons of paper wow two tons of paper delivered to the to the congress andthen the congress okay now validate how you validate 100 millions of people signatures on twotons of paper like 13 000 notaries around the country 13 000notaries in the entire country impossible impossible what happenedsome deputy sponsored the project and present the project on behalf of himin his name like i am doing this just because of the power of people like i ilisten to people so i'm i'm but it was not the official thing right signed bypeople and being voted because the constitution says they need to do that then he came to mewith that thing we can collect okay if you put it likestanding on the legal aspects if you solve the legal aspects correct i will solve the it has to be enforceablelegally in order for your service to actually be valid in a use case like that then we were working together okayi built the entire protocol at that time and then now brazil hastwo laws that were approved by people signing their own petitions like theyproposed the law collected the signatures and some states in brazil read accepted the thing soit's a huge step in brazil that is amazing so basically your protocol is an officially like court recognized um youknow government recognized protocol for they tried to deny some some places right deny becausethey did they did it officially in some state when they went to the congressthe people built a proposal for reducing the politician salaries ohthey collected the signatures then they delivered the things over therethen they like i don't want to vote that kindof thing and it is stop it for years jesus the voting the desk of the the guys over theredoesn't like competition right yeah yeah but that's the kind of thing is happening over there it's crazy butit's interesting because the thing i created it is moving somehow is movingpeople to do the democracy better yeah that's important that's the culture imean you know like i i i'm kind of shocked and appalled i meanin a way like it was so spoiled in estonia you know it's like your government here already said okay let's just well youknow we can build it as we want to let's just go straight to the chain and let's just kind of do this digitally likewhat was it like i think during tax time um it was i don't a quarter of the countrywithin the first day already filed their taxes in estonia and 99 of them did it fully online wowand half of those were on the mobile phone like i mean you know but was compared to thattype of process where in brazil around the same time yeah this was happening umwow yeah it just chris as i said you know i we did some kind ofcool things over there and people started to like threatening threatening usand me and man you can't live like that so what did you do yeah then we come to 2017in 2017 we launched that project for collecting series on public petitions got it i wentto new york to launch my own app of signing documents general documentsdoing that identification issuing the digital certificate blockchain based it and signing the thingsand the ico thing oh the world was like grow growing andcrazy things happening and people came to my booth over there i was in the biggest event of blockchainevent in the united states the consensus the biggest one in the world yeahpresenting my project done i was launching the thing right and people coming to mewhen we will launch the thing no no but what about the ico no we are notdoing an ico i'm just launching the app the project you can use it it's an actual thing that you can use i'mwriting icos that were raising money on toilet paper i'm not doing that guy yeah i'm not having real productand then oh my god a lot of people are doing this kind of ico and it's so hard toraise money in brazil to our projects because our dvc don't understand or it'snot the thesis or yeah they well they're real estate investors not tech investorsyeah so then i went back to brazil after the ico bombed my mindbecause it was like blowing my mind with those all the companies were doing nice shows why i'm i am not doing this kindof thing they are raising millions and i have no money i have nothing i don't have money for six months aheadwhat then i started start talking to more vcs because we were in google they presentedus to many people and no one no one were like willing to invest on usso wait you had a working product yeah with people using it yes and they weren't willing to invest versus they'rehappily putting millions because they didn't understand the markets they didn't understand blockchain or the technology exactly or we were doingsomething for something i heard over there you are doing some global productwe don't invest in global products just for brazilians what mandoesn't even make sense and another another you know i i i'm shocked that people lps like rich peoplewho are private put their money into these funds run by monkeys yeah totallylike what like there's amazing people like you and others out theredoing things that are going to really change the world and they could just be getting direct access without paying two percent plus20 on profits totally it was totally saidand i i saw many startups doing a lot of doing first marketing and thenthe product exactly and i had the product but i'm bad on marketing i am really bad i don't domarketing for now i i yeah for now maybe for sure but i'm really bad on marketing i alwaysdo the thing and i present the thing already done then okay you don't want to invest i'lldo the ico then i prepared everything for doing our own icowe built our own platform for doing everything because we have didn't so you built an ico platform thattechnically you could also sell as a product now yes the idea was that like doing the first ico in brazil i couldhelp another startups for doing the same so i built the platform thinking aboutoh i can sell the platform for other startups doing the same and raising money by themselvesthen one month uh well ten days before launching the ico i received theofficial letter from the brazilian regulator saying i don't know what you're doingwe need some explanations and you have five days to answer me and i was 10 days before the launching ofthe ico oh i was totally crazy platforms and people and marketing and everythingright then i was i like i received the email but i didn'tdo anything at the time like i hadn't you're busyi mean five days come on i was busy yeah then first day second day third day okaylet me see what they want now when i read the email oh my god i need a lawyerto answer them now i have two days oh no to hire a lawyerteach the lawyer to explain something to someone who doesn't even want to understand exactlythen we went late for sure for the thing then we received the second officialletter for answering three days and fines of 1 000rios brazilian currency yeah per day of the late per day of being late ofanswering the thing then okay we stopped at the ico we answeredeverything and we were waiting for an answer of the regulator saying okay we understood you are readyto go or no you are forbidden nothing so silence silence absolutely silence theydidn't answer one month two months what three months and i was running imagine iwent back in may from consensus i had six months of the runnery runaway of mycompany right cash yeah yeah and then we started the thing uh it was forrunning in end of july so may june july launching we were stopped at threemonths we waited for one month second month third month oh my god we are running outof money we have nothing anymore we need to do the ico they didn't answer okay probably that'sbecause they they just don't want to answer and open the gates for theso that's okay they are in silence who is in silence probably they approve it let's do thatyeah then we announced the ico again uh they meet the media because i ibecause of the original mai and the things i built over there i am very known in brazilthen the media came to me uh interviewing and everything 10 days before the launching again thethird official letter asking for more questions andputting some laws saying i could go to jail what and oh my god what just happenedthreatening you basically they basically said yeah then in google we have like uh ourmentor main mentor in google is the the legal director the country countrydirector of google over there in brazil in brazil we went to the guyman this is happening we don't have money we don't know what to dodo you know someone we can talk please we need some help yeah then he introduced us to some uhlawyer company in the google uh building over there one of the most expensive lawyers in thecountry because they are specialized in the financial system right over there the most expensivei can't pay no they are friends let's do some meeting i will arrange a meeting okaylet's go we presented the problem and everything they understood and they said oh in 15days we will have a meeting with the ceo of the regulators the securities regulators in brazil okayi can't it's not official but i can just introduce the topic and understand whatthe temperature what's the temperature of the thing what they are what why they are doing this kind of thing on the verylike casual talking okay let's wait 15 days because a regular person would say like obviouslythey have a reason you know for asking these questions from you and you knowthen they came back and uh okay edison we have two news foryou a bed yeah a good one what do you prefer first okay i started the bad onei want to leave at this meeting with the good news that is the bad news yeah okaythe bad news is forget about the ico you will not raise money they will not forbid youofficially but they have the administrative ways to block your company and even if your launch they cancome to you and say now stop right we don't understand when we understand then you can go okayand well it was clear on the ico launching something if you launchsomething and then we stop the thing it loses trust with the community yeah yeahit just can destroy the entire project because of that not like the government cares but yeahokay we understood we can't raise the moneywhat's the good news the good news you need to leave the country what whatwait how is that good news you got to leave your home behind whatyeah and what he said was like brazil they are followers on regulationuh when united states they were building the regulation about uh thecrypto thing over there we had the new york license at that time andthe that normal thing we do in brazil we open a company in cayman island go todelaware and delaware brazil that's that's a triangulation that's very normal for brazilian startups forreceiving money having the company out of brazil but receiving money through united states and they said you don'twant to be close to united states because it's veryshadowy like like they are doing the regulation right nowand we don't know nobody knows what's going to happen yeah you need to go to other places oh my god wherethen we started to look into the jurisdictions around the world aboutregulation taxes taxes um costs for leaving for opening thecompany and everything and we we made literally shopping aroundthe world for a good place to go and i i read the regulations of like 40 40countries about everything and we did a matrix like regulationtaxes costs and future strategy for original mai and we had a lot of leads from thesouth of europe like italy because they have the same problems as brazil on bureaucracy yeah we are like latinslatin people we are not organized people by natureby nature so we imported that kind of lack of organizationitalians have portuguese people has spanish people to brazil that's why we are that kind ofmess and uh okay we could go to europe so europe is interesting to ussingapore could could be a good place but very expensive then on europe okay switzerlandswitzerland's not europe but it's the best regulation about blockchain and greek spacebut too expensive and we had no money at the time we were like lacking totally of moneyand we found estonia estonia with a pretty new regulation about uh blockchain and wallets andcryptocurrencies unreasonable totally in europeand the cost of living over here and opening the company and managing the things are cheaper comparing to othercountries that that's the place where like thedigital democracy was born almost because pretty much everything is digital over hereokay estonia seems to be a good place to to go then we decided to estoniawe found an engine investor who believed on us and gave us some money to do thetransition then i got my residency came to a stone upthere's a strange story how i went to estonia for the first time because i went to south korea then south korea toestonia okay and uh conference or what nothe the end of the year 2017 to 2018 we already decided to estonia i iapplied to the residency was waiting to the approval someformer ceo of samsung okay visited me on google i my company was the only companyworking during that week between christmas and the beginning of the yearwe were the only one people company over the startup over there and man i want to to meet you i likewhat you are doing i want to understand better can you receive this oh for sure just arrive here right yeahwe were talking and then he said forget about the ico just forget about itsell your tokens to me privately i uh i'm promising somesome money some good money for you and let's talk okayoh he doesn't need no one wants to invest on us that's a crazy guy forget about it let's do what we'redoing then on a friday he asked meokay uh can you visit south korea with me for sure for sure ican when on monday for what it was friday it was friday morningnext month it was the second time he was contacting me okay we were talking andthird time we were talking on google then he called me some like random day yeah then the thirdtime let's go to south korea okay let's go this relationship's moving pretty fastit was like beginning of february beginning of february it was one month uh between the thespace then okay i then i i i told himi go but you need to send me the tickets the flight tickets and the hotel becauseoh a guy i barely i mean after all of your experiences how can you have your hopesup for something that's so great yeah make sure they put their money where their mouth is right yeahthen on saturday night like it was 10 p.m arrived on my emailthe tickets the hotel the booking the everything i was looking into my wife oh my godit's serious i'm going to south korea people are actually doing and organizing stuff coming what was happeningi went to south korea then we did the travel coming back to estonia instead of going back to brazil then i igot my residency i opened the company over here because okay it could be done onlinebut i'm brazilian i went you want to see who you're doing to see what what was happening if it was realthen i came too good to be true yeah too good to be truethen i opened the company i applied for the bank account i waitedsome days for the meeting because the first time you open in the bank account they need to check youthen i i did the application then i went back to brazilwhat happened because it was not a good story the ending of this story with the former ceoof samsung he like he didn't buythe tokens as he said it was just a small amount of moneyand instead of holding the thing he sold the tokens to some scammer in southkorea what the the scammers resolved he just flipped itokay and then the scammer flipped again to people and didn't deliver the tokensto south koreans and at that time i was like okay we are raising some money i'm organizing thething because i got i i small money from the android investor like it wasless than thirty thousand dollars okay at a time that's nothing that's nothing just to move the company out of braziland paying tickets flight tickets and and accommodation yeah then at some point a lot of southkoreans started to come to original my channels telegram channels slack channels facebook and everything twitterand ever i want my tokens where am i watching what are you talking about because i saw the tokens to one guy yeahprivately and what happened then after a lot of timehe disappeared for some time and then he appeared again oh i saw the tokensbut to one guy i trust like man he we saw the tokens to another guy it was not supposed to sell yeah to anyoneand didn't deliver the tokens it was a totally mess with the token when ilisted the token in the first co in the first exchange they drop it because the lack of confidence on our project yeahthey dump it everything and i just want to say like throughout this whole process nobody actuallyunderstood what you guys are doing so it's just been somebody taking advantage of the fact that hey lookslegit all right who can i pump it to who can i dump it to it's just that moving just money around having an idea i sold the tokens for20 cents of dollar yeah per token to the former president of samsung yeah heresold for 60 dollars whoa and that guy resold the tokens for 80 cents of dollar60 cents and 80 cents of dollar to people okay they made a lot of money on top of me and they scammed the tokenand it was not even a lot of money like my life the company's life it was geezlike a small amount of money well i mean the fact is your project was worth that much and probably even more probablymore way more probably way more but the thing is this is just taking advantage oflike i i raised less than 500 000 dollars like it's a ancient investori was trying to manage the the change the transition the company the people who are like mad at me onsouth korea and one thing we did and i promise it to my team we will deliver everything wepromised it even without money i don't know how we do that but we will do thatbecause people will see and when they ask some for the amount of money youyeah we raise it we delivered entire road mapand we delivered and my developers and my people they trusted me and they were like helping the company because theybelieved in what we were doing yeah and we delivered everything so today's itit's okay amazing i can hear the audience clapping as they're listening to this yeah that is just like seriouslyman that is i know that well i think it's the correct thing to do it is the right thing to do that's integrity you know and there's there's alack of that in business and uh as original i was not evera kind of company who just made promises and didn't deliver so even we weresorry about the word but it because people did that kind of thing to us all thetime we delivered everything so they can't say anything about the company about myself my honor and everythingbecause we we we made all the promises we made everything so then so then how is itgoing with original maya like what happened after you so you moved to estonia eventually yeah right so you got the company set up andhelped me understand like kind of while your team was building and delivering on the roadmap and everythingyou then moved to estonia yeah so what happened in the end because of thethreats and everything i decided to move myself and my wife stayed in brazil for twoyears but she's my partner in the company since the beginning in the previous company for the partners inbusiness in life and we met in a veryunusual place like we were skydivers togetherokay so we met in the same skydive school we worked it i i i was in skydiving structureas well and she was helping to do editing in my videos i worked as acamera flyer i did many recordings for television and everything and doing skyand you guys were literally falling in love following mewe met over there and things happened and we are together since thenand she were there in brazil managing the team because the entire teamwas in brazil she was managing everything the commercial area the operational areahelping me with the developers the the marketing team and everything over thereand i was here alone in in in estonia it's got to be hard though being away from family it it was yeah itwas it was in some yes it was it was totally but someone needed to do that i know imean you when you have a mission right yeah then i was here trying to open um therelations with potential investors meeting and other countries and theneeds of other countries doing partnerships for the companyand i was running everything by myself over here and she was doing over thereand well that's what we are doing right well right now she's in estonia livingwith me finally finally since since last year and we are managing everything from fromestonia right now so you're both new challengers yeah we are both new italianeers man i i almosta part of me wants to go into like you know more hey how's your life been in estonia and everything as a new talenterbut at the same time i want to know how the story goes since then so she moves over she's c-o-o andeverything cfo and and so on and you're ceo cto essentially rightso you've been trying to do partnerships investors are you raising if i can ask i mean it'syou know it's march 2022 and if you are raising it would be veryinteresting because as you know latitude 59 all of that is coming up in soon i don't know the exact dates butyeah and uh are you going to be open to vc's angels sure sure as i start up therestart up here now yeah i am always open to talk to investors i did it many manytimes probably here in estonia i had meetings with all the investors over here but you want the right investorsthat's the problem that's the problem because they don't understand what we are doingbecause they compare what we have with what estonia has as a country right andthey have as a startup and they don't understand the problems and the struggles of the valleyproposition the value proposition right my product doesn't doesn't help in estonia yeah becauseeverything is in minnesota is digital but it helps 30 countries countries like latin america likessouthern europe even some countries in europe yeah and uh it was crazy becausewith in some meetings over there with estonian investors they said i don't seea product well you have nothing let me ask you a question then so the signature i getright of course you know that estonia has a blockchain technology sure so maybe the estonians won't get that butwouldn't they be able to see the value proposition of time stamping on a blockchain uh ipwhether that's creative content um whether that's maybe even patentswhether that's i mean there's so many applications here i tried many approaches many approaches and[Music] they don't seem to be interested i don't know i really don't know probably or ori don't know how to sell myself and my product and it's reasonable it happens we don't knowif i'm not showing what we do properly or they just don't caresomething some some investors said oh your company is selling moreyour main market is brazil we don't we know nothing about brazil and latin america the market but i mean you haveglobal applications brazil's just to go to market at the start i don't know no i don't it sounds likethey're making excuses decide to try to be polite maybe given a random excuse rather than just say hey idon't know if you know you can do it or if you need more help and i don't know if i can helpyou a lot of the time i've noticed this with investors they they say no in a with one excuse butreally it is probably something else there but they just don't want to admit it that they just hey i don't i don'tunderstand enough how you're going to make money oh i can't intellectually comprehend it so i'm just going to givesome excuse that sounds legit i mean it's challenging for them to seeout of their perspective right something new but that's a sales challenge too i mean as a sales person sure sure youwant to be able to think about um positioning it rather than talking about the technology which is amazingand it's crazy because we like we were awarded many times here ineurope and around the world doing p since peach competitionsare doing presentations about what you are doing like you when they listed the original my as one of the real use casesfor blockchain doing so social un has recognized you yeah i i ithey listed us on our official report wow over there doing something for governments andinstitutions we were awarded in cyber security because of the privacy and protection ofpersonal data we do on dubai in the biggest investment uhevent they have over there like the annual investment meeting i remember this yes the biggest one yeahwe went finally in japan introduced by estonia we were finalists in the horizon2020 i i went to the european commission yeah i went there to do the finalpresentation i was finalists over there wow because they understood what we weare doing we were not the winners because the winners were just one companybut we were finally i went that's scared to do the presentationwe like we won a lot of thingssome people see the value about what we are doing and how it can impact positively peoplearound the world but not for investors who want like fast money back the return fast returnbecause we need to do a lot of things on education governments are talking about regulationon blockchain and the biggest the biggest uncertainty factor probably big players like ibmthey are selling we have our own blockchain we are selling blockchain and some companies but everything isbecause we know it's not a blockchain it's totally centralized for themyeah and we we found we found a way for doing everything on a very transparentway using real blockchain that's not good for anyone well i mean but that's the other thingyou know what i mean the transparency i mean it's it's it'sgood for everyone just not specific people yeah but the thing is um you know it's funny because in in some startupand mostly tech circles and you probably know this we always say that in a way we're almostat the stage as a species now where the way in which governments were designed in the past and estonia has proven thisis irrelevant but it is the only company that if you try to compete with them youget put in jail your stuff's taken from you your family is threatened as clearly you've experienced and that'sman insane insane yeah so i'm saying the fact that you found refuge here in tallinn like i'm glad but at the sametime like the world needs more people like you man like solving real problems for real peoplein in a way that is genuine and with integrity like dudei'm i'm trying to help and i'm doing what i mean that's why i can't say a word i'm just likefeeling stupid but uh i mean so curious and so happy and honored that we havepeople like you coming here and that there is an actual ecosystemthat's at least a little bit supportive on these kind of ideas i hopebut estonia is helping for sure for the first time some count some government like they they got me into uhdenmark to present about gov tech estonia as a as a country is helping meto show what we are doing to other countries to other countries and they're putting their credibilitywith that totally that's good latvia latvia the the minister of economy inlatvia they did some hackathon blockchain hackathon on uh to try tohelp people to not avoid taxes because they don'tdisclosure about what they are doing and they were like have but having transparency to them it was veryimportant having transparency when people were doing their declarations of texas declarationthen some people in estonia they invited me oh eduson you could represent estonia in thatevent in latvia yes for sure i'm very honored representing estonia in latvia wow and iwent to latvia and then estonia sent me to denmark estonia sent me to lisbon toto talk and show people how estonia could be a very good ecosystem to bring the status because it isover here i can talk if like if i want to understand what the government is doing in some very specific fieldi just schedule i find people in three days i am i have the meetingin brazil it's impossible to talk to any politician or anyone from the governmentit's impossible and over here i have access to people because of the size of theireverything is closer yeah but there's also an openness to ideas they are very open to ideas yeah they're very open toideas and that's listen the politics in general estonia particularly but i've seen thisalso in vilnius for example in lithuania but like in general this region the openness to ideas i think it's alsobecause they genuinely want to self-improve totally you know i mean they've already gone way ahead of othercountries but they know that just because you're ahead now doesn't mean you're going to be ahead forever yeah it's an always ongoing thing and youwant the best talent the best people the best solutions so the thing that's not going very well with investorsit is totally the opposite when i talk to the government all thethe openness of the government to receive my my company and my project over here understand what we do andpresent us open the channels in japan in denmark in the nordicseven in portugal it was easier because we speak the same language over there and latvia and some they are presentingthey are opening the space for presenting original and that's important becausewho is edison from brazil doing something we don't understand and with blockchain blockchain thing probablyit's another scammer is another guy who did an ico probably he will sell nftsome monkeys smoking monkeys something yeah on board monkey monkeys and we are not doing thatwe have a real project doing a lot of good things and then yeahi know it's transitional like it's it's just temporary yeah not having money it's temporary becausethe basis we built originally exactly i mean we're you're running a marathon andbuilding trust that has a solid ground when on the otherend are people who talk build trust fast because that's the goal right get the money fast inand don't actually deliver yeah and whatever comes afterwards is not valuable anyway i mean but tolighten the notes a little bit um seriously latitude 59 um think about how you want to pitch andraise and uh if investors are listening to this angel investors from around thebaltics or around scandinavia this is a guy i've known for years and we are customers we are happy customersbecause we have some some investors that are international um from different countries that don't have digitalsignatures like estonia and our preferred method i mean we have other like digital you know digital doodlesyeah um because you know people understand that but we put original maya as our preference if you don't have anestonian id please use original my if you don't want to sign up there then yeah you can use the doodles because we need to move fast but please sign up fororiginal mice and we're going to keep pushing that and you know man thank you so much for taking the timethank you for coming i want to hear more about this story we're going to have you on again and i have i know i'msurprising you with this but i haven't asked blockchain is a confusing area for somany people right because they just a lot of people don't don't really understand yeahand at new talenters we want to give voices to people in tallinn who are doing amazing things and who havehave something to contribute to the community and help them understand and you know self-improve as we dowould you be willing to join us as do like a series with newchallenges parallel series just on crypto to just help educate the community on topic by topic because there's you know cryptocurrency thenthere's nfts and there were icos and then what the hell is happening and what is estonia's blockchain tech and youknow we could do so many things on that and if you're willing we will sponsor and host this and original my branded umwith new talenters yeah i would be very honored then i can ask all the stupid questions that come into my mind whileyou fantastic for sure tune in original maiis going to do a series with new talenters we are excited thank you edelson for everything you do thank youwishing you all the best and uh on that note keep learning thank you